below are samples of Proof Marks of different countries. Purchased by Val Forgett of Navy Arms in 1978. Members . Hand Guns 3 Rifles-Shotguns 0 . A forum community dedicated to Shotgun owners and enthusiasts including the Remington, Beretta, and Mossberg shotguns brands. Closset Louis The fifth a crown, with three crossed spikes set over a capital E. Other French towns had their special marks, such as I found a couple on this site and also nramuseum.com leading me to believe its a British or Belgian gun. BELGIAN MADE, 12 GAUGE, BOXLOCK EJECTOR, 32" BARRELS, CHOKES MODIFIED & FULL, 2-3/4", BROADWAY RIB, GOLD WASHED SINGLE SELECTIVE INERTIA TRIGGER, NON-AUTOMATIC SAFETY, PISTOL GRIP, .Click for more info Seller: Country Pursuits Area Code: 718 $3,895.00 ROYAL GUN, BELGIUM SXS 12GA, GI#: 102149842 + 10-14% by piezoelectric transducer measurement. Miscellaneous He designed iconic guns like the M1911 handgun, the Browning Hi-Power pistol, and the Browning Auto-5 shotgun. Proof marks are the official stamps or ciphers showing that a barrel has been properly tested with the prescribed excess charges of powder and ball that allow a large factor of safety to the user. It could be almost anything: an English Greener, which would have Birmingham, England, proof marks, or it could be a double of dubious origin. Come join the discussion about optics, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! Pictures would help! Some older foreign manufactured firearms, such as pistols from Spain and Italy, will list a location, rather than a manufacturer. The numbers 138 G(looks like a 1) are under the proof mark. A strong good product that will last for long usage in your 1870-1898. Good examples of the information that can be derived from adequate images. If you could find the time to give me a clue what exactly this gun is I would greatly appreciate it.Thanks,John. Still, this company firmly has its roots in the good old U.S.A. John Moses Browning is a legend of firearms history. Smaller gauges progressively cost more, with 20-gauge guns generally bringing at least twice the price of a 12 gauge. Chartier Comblain Dieudonn Joseph Using a shotgun shell (a self-contained cartridge with multiple small, sphere-shaped projectiles) instead of a usual bullet is what makes a shotgun a separate kind of a gun. Would that appear at this location on the piece?What Im attempting to do, is get this pistol appraised; thus the research to discover all the markings. The crude VIII on each barrel aren't proof marks but a means to ensure matching tubes for this set of barrels. Serial Numbers. "Proofs" as they are sometimes referred to have changed over Can be without star and ring. Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, Brandon, but I've been out of the country w/o internet access. Thank you Jerry. Hand Guns 24 Rifles-Shotguns 22 . Is there a stamp of LLH on the tubes forward of the flats? A great deal of painstaking research work is necessary before a list of armourers marks applied to pistols can be compiled, but I have every hope of preparing such a list at a future date when peace is restored in Europe and the great museum collections are accessible. Bernard Emile & Cie Bovy Thodore Joseph As I've said, I'm not an expert. or E.C. Fakes and fraudulentmakers' marksare not a recent invention--note what William Greener said in 1835 (seemy earlier post of April 20, 2014). As for proof marks, the oval with E/LG/* inside makes it indeed Belgian. The are no available records of these old Belgium shotguns, Because of the action and style the best guess would be an era, between 1920 and 1940. This listing allows you to trace back a particular nation's aviation history in reverse-chronological order. Nessonvaux is short drive outside of Liege. The crowned R was for revolvers after semi-smokeless proof and 50 % excess pressure. Colot The "1136" might be the serial number for that pair of pistols. Bettonville - Fontaine - Galoppin Colleye Henri Joseph Prices: side-by-side, from 53,000 + VAT; over-and-under, from 65,000 + VAT. U.S.A.Most pistols exported from the United States are not proof marked in their country of origin. date, serial number and property marks as well as various acceptance and Baker, David J. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. Now represents definitive black powder proof except for muzzle loaders, This mark is found on barrels and locks after voluntary semi-smokeless proof, Standard smokeless powder proof on military rifles below 8mm caliber.1898-present, Standard smokeless proof for all arms.1903-present, Mark applied to barrels which failed proof and have returned to makers for reworking. 4 0 obj Braekers Charles & Cie Board Of I bought an old shotgun from my uncle, he bought it in the late 40s early 50s. Bischop Pierre outlawman7 - The reason for a lack of response here may be found in the post immediately above yours. A reader hasasked me to say something aboutBelgian proof marks. Each new gun is presented in a best oak and leather case complete with canvas outer and a full complement of accessories. Hand Guns 2 Rifles-Shotguns 0 . Weight of proofed barrels, after 1924 fractions of grams no longer used. Information, NRA I'm still working on a date and it seems like narrowing it down by what years it could'nt be from might be a better strategy. Are you sure they are Damascus and not perhaps fake Damascus made by etching a spiral pattern on solid steel barrels for those who liked the look of Damascus? CLIMAS Tradename used by J. Stevens Arms Co. on guns. Thanks a ton this, helped me identify a friends old revolver. stream Then emigrated to Belgium at the end of 1859. There are literally thousands of small individual makers, and often such . The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. Smokeless powder proof of military rifles until 1903, thereafter indicates nitro proof for all types of arms. Belgian Arms cie Austrian arms were marked with the double eagle, and later with the letters Wn 78; a variety of private marks of manufacturers are also in use. A voluminous schedule of rules and scales of charge for the proof of various kinds of small arms is in existence, and the proof is the same at London and at Birmingham; though different proof marks are employed. If the price seems too good to be true, it probably is. The first type of testing we will study is the Proof Test. for your continued support, encouragement and admonishment. Some were sold in Stoeger catalogs in the early 60s. significance or purpose. Subcategories This category has only the following subcategory. Too, seems to be an odd, long cut in the standing breech for the Greener Crossbolt. One of the lesser known of the Belgian handgun makers was Jean Warnant but he was a creative designer and the British Thornton's Patent for a double action revolver lock work was actually originally his idea for which he applied for a patent in Belgium in 1874 and that patent was granted in 1875. of data available and a wealth of color pictures about the most typical pieces of his The Lion Rampant over PV was applied to the Optional Supplementary Smokeless proof for shotguns in 1898. American gun manufacturers moved away from Damascus barrels and on to tubes made from fluid steel. If I was asked for a guess for a dollar I would say mid 1930's. Spain depended for long upon the proof of individual armourers, and most Spanish barrels were marked with the stamp of the maker set in a square or oblong block under a crown. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Caliber 15mm, length 122cm. The Liege proof house was established in 1672 and it is the oldest European proof house still in operation. Between 1847-1952 the stamp with the letter F-J C was used in the same purpose. If you can, send me a photo: ghcox3@gmail.com.Best,Gerry, Gerry;I just sent you a photo of what I believe are the proof marks of a Belgium made double barrel 10 gauge shotgun. Rich engraved. Ateliers Saint Laurent, Bauwir Joseph arsenal marks, you will find other marks or stampings. Due to the vast quantity of data to treat, the global work was parted . Ancion Marx By Alain Daubresse. Email: ghcox3@gmail.com. The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time. I'll test it very cautiously. Seen Variant of the one above, used for some month in 1894 and sometimes later on Not for ball, indicates that the barrel has choke. to identify the manufacturer. Hunting, fishing, cooking, and other critical aspects of life. Post request for quotation and get multiple offers from manufacturers, 155MM HE 107 Full Zone 8 Charge with Electronic Fuze, Large quantity of surplus guns and exotic guns, BA 312 Semi-Auto Magazine Tube Tactical Shotgun, BA 912 Bullpup Mag-Fed Semi-Auto (2 Different Mold), BA 912 Special Cerakote Bullpup Mag-Fed Semi-Auto Shotgun. will normally provide the information needed to make a caliber Any idea what it all means? Don't know about the Star P. And I don't ever evaluate guns. are cottage industry type weapons without a specific brand name. I have my grand dads Belgian Browning A5 Sweet Sixteen. Closset Louis - Remy Hubert The proof marks for Eibar, in Spain, are the letters Po, surmounted by a crown. After this, the firearm is examined to make sure it is still intact and if so, the metal (usually the barrel) is stamped with . Bte" tells us the maker: it stands for "Dieudonn Debouxthay Brevete", or "Patent Dieudonn Debouxthay" in English. Andr M.J. Outdoor Hub, LLC (d/b/a Carbon Media Group), 30800 Telegraph Rd, Suite 1921, Bingham Farms, MI 48025 USA. Delcour-Dupont was a barrel maker in Nessonvaux, Belgium. Any help would be appreciated. visiting our on-line listing of manufacturers identifying marks, Black powder proof for rifles and shotguns. marks tell the country of origin of the weapon. Does it reach the touch hole? See Kennett's # 2 and # 9 above. The second is the crossed branches, with the letters A.E. Rifle: Included in this lot we have a Belgian Flobert Style Warnant . Bertrand Antoine Hand Guns 9 Rifles-Shotguns 0 . But despite the history the belgian proof stamps are rather straight forward, normally one can't get more information from the proof more than it has been done if one can't find the inspectors mark. Original handmade flintlock & percussion ("cap & ball") firearms . A.H. Fox guns came in 12-gauge, 16-gauge, and 20-gauge. only 70 i see is the 70above the D = above where it says 20.7 i dont know what those numbers mean. If 'JF' it could be Janssen Fils or Frres. The idea behind such a test is to verify the strength of the barrel, breech and firing system of a firearm by deliberately firing an over-pressured cartridge. Once tested and successful the weapon was stamped with a seal to Coquilhat Aim Home | Login | Register. Bronne Gustave It means it's a 12 gauge that has been proofed with black powder. In 1888 it was decided by a joint meeting of the Gunmakers Company and the Birmingham Guardians that a new supplementary proof for smokeless powder should be instituted in 1893, 1896, and 1904; the rules were further adjusted to allow for new powders. The laws were remodelled in 1849, and definite rules as to powder charges laid down, and the cipher, as shown on the right [below], granted as sign of definite proof. Hand Guns 17 Rifles-Shotguns 1 . Can you send me some, Ed? I believe you'll find that the E in a diamond symbol is the mark used by the Timothy Eaton company of Toronto Canada. If there is no Lion over PV, the gun was NOT proved for smokeless powder. Hand Guns 5 Rifles-Shotguns 1 . Parisa cipher of E. and P. set back to back (as shown below). By 1931, Fabrique Nationale d'Armes de Guerre in Herstal, Belgium (FN) launched an even smaller .25 ACP pistol developed by the company's chief designer, Dieudonn Saive. Wish I could be more helpful! Burlet Long Beach, CA: Safari Press, 2000. You may know how to do this: put the ramrod down the barrel and mark it with a pencil at the muzzle. He received his technical training in Soest and then in Warstein. Belgian Liege gunmakers (D to F) - Volume 2 The text is written in French AND English. Is there a 70mm stamp on the extractor blade faces? The fourth the crossed branches, with the letters S.E.E., and a cross in their angles. I can't find any other mumbers on the gun other than the multiple proof markings that I will post later. CLEMENT, J. The crown R and star P stamped on the barrel, receiver, and cylinder. It is was built using a very thick 2023 Military Pay Chart Military Ranks DoD Dictionary Conversion Calculators Military Alphabet Code Military Map Symbols The "Military Factory" name and MilitaryFactory.com logo are registered U.S. trademarks protected by all applicable domestic and international intellectual property laws. Chaumont M.J. BELGIAN PROOF MARKSPROOF MARKS: BELGIAN PROOF MARKS, . in the A to C range of the alphabetical order. Belgian proofs are among the oldest and have a very long history. Cachoir The first on the left and the fourth (the one that resembles a candlestick)indicate provisional proof. After years of looking at and trying the examiner in determining the caliber designation of a military Ordinance and Proof Houses were established by law in almost every Since the U.S. has no proofing houses (as in England, France, Germany and . A "Greener" double? [more like this] Belgian Flobert Style Warnant 8mm Parlor. cardboard cover and the paper used for the printing was of the high glossy type and Belgian Liege gunmakers (A to C) - Volume 1 By Alain Daubresse This printed and hardbound book, written in English and French by Alain Daubresse, provide an extensive insight about the gunmaking activity in Belgium from its very beginning to the middle of the 20th century. Thomas Jefferson. Bernard Henri Eugne firearms. x\}WT_0qk E%Mp8@S36QG7=TFx,P?wU]4v>3}wc)0~_+. The Belgian gun industry in Liege produced flintlock muskets for their African colonies until the mid-1950s. Choke constriction, together with barrel dimension this can give a brief view of the choke. thanks for the help so far. 2 On barrel locking system or chamber if the lumps are part of the barrel after final black powder proof, Preliminary proof for unfinished barrels, and indicated barrels had not been weakened after proof by breeching, Used on muzzle loaders, Bore diameter in millimeters. Underneath the whole appears the word St. Etienne. This printed and hardbound book, written in English and French by Alain Daubresse, provide an extensive insight about the gunmaking activity in Belgium from its very beginning to the middle of the 20th century. It has punched on one side of barrel 17.2, on the other side punched JC, EL ,pinfire symbol, K and crown on its top, E LG little crown under them in oval.Please help me to get the closest identification for this nice firearm. Do check with a gunsmith before you shoot it! JavaScript is disabled. Comblain Hubert Joseph Belgian shotguns are still finely-made firearms and are considered some of the best to come out of Europe. The Standard mark for French Government arms was a crown above an E., and this crown has a three looped top, with the orb or ball and cross as ornament, and is so distinguished from the cross-crested crown of some St. Etienne weapons. Chaineux J. R. Medina on October 31, 2020: ttn intnl model 1878 s/n 4751. michael v ventimiglia on October 30, 2020: new england firearms ( N G 001039 ) model r22 ultra mini. Anonymes JavaScript is disabled. Do check with a gunsmith before you shoot it! The earliest 3D-printed guns were crude single-shot devices. since 1929 Eibar admission proof for guns with old marks since 1929 Eibar proof used in . Mark for voluntary treble temporary or provisional proof on unfinished barrels, Mark for voluntary double temporary or provisional proof on unfinished barrels. Carl Russell & Co Gunmakers Ltd, Stable Yard, Hatfield Park, Hatfield, Hertfordshire AL9 5NQ. Bouquin Ad Due to the Sounds like a 19th C. Belgian pinfire shotgun (grin). Bauduin Charles "Arsenal" or "Inspector Marks". Smith & Wesson markets gun accessories, handcuffs, safes, apparel, watches, collectibles, knives, tools, air guns, and myriad other products under its brand name, including cologne, handbags, and washing machines. Bury Jules. Measure your Cogswell and it should be about that.The barrels are 32" and the gun weighs approx 73/4 lbs. On this page, once you scroll past the patent stuff, you'll find a gun very much like yours. Can anybody shed some light here? Beckers G. These marks have all the characteristic appearance of a rectangle, with a small blob at the top rather like a tied up sack of corn. firearms books bibliary. Brancquaert Louis Scroll through our inventory of antique pistols and handguns from our cartridge pistols and revolvers category below. The examiner must rely on proof marks when trying to identify these firearms. gfk0W2|Z#C7xA5 2`f)Hj'[iZWMU=|J-T `)Mtex=]m$azBbk>$QPB gTb0nnPTbj\uD`.3;7 ;U}LuB+2aki!Ld1QNUwr$Oaj9,U1Oe~N2u]6;&?a'LOe3 NIIS/\4fFIGXT[,(rN]3"!2(4YBd^VUY:;jWCJ^f"X.2X:l\d>|D}#&Ofw`Rv|$6&)M Second Variation serial numbers 707517-851751 (7,000 produced) - 708921. Or any info? Christophe & Montigny As the old saying has it, "The buyer needs a thousand eyes; the seller, only one." Very little: I'm assuming it isn't a muzzleloader but a breechloader, which means it could be as early as 1860-1865, say. Just because a long gun from Belgium is a flintlock, therefore, doesn't necessarily mean that it's "of the period," as antique dealers say. In its small version its a acceptance mark on barrels that was exported in a unfinished state 1846-1893, In its small version its a black powder mark on small pistols and revolvers barrels 1866-1893, In its small version its a black powder mark on small revolvers cylinders 1866-1893. Muzzleloading, breech loading, accessories, Airborne weapon pod systems, ammunition, vehicle mounted weapon systems, Gas-piston-operated weapon systems, firearm accessories, drop-in triggers, patriotic artwork, bolt carriers, bolts, upper receivers, barrel nut heatsinks, E^2 (E-Squared) barrels, Handguns, shotguns, machine guns, battle rifles, Suppressors, optics, ammunition, clothing, Springfield, Massachusetts armory location, (Special Warfare Operations Research and Development), This page was last edited on 20 February 2023, at 21:10. SCH or EC is abbreviations of the powder: SCH meaning Schultze. Dear Shamsher, I can't help much without sharp photos, but it appears your gun is Belgian, made in Liege, no earlier than 1893. These two, and sometimes the makers private mark, may be found on many old weapons. Baltus - Wilmotte Volunteer arms co. on October 29, 2020: 16 gauge serial number is 90524xe what would it be worth and how old is it. and hardbound book, written in English and French by Alain Daubresse, provide an extensive Original British Martini-Henry Rifle Extractor Mk IV From $34.95 Free Domestic Shipping on orders $300+ Hassle Free 30 Day Return Period 100% Safe Secure Checkout Guaranteed Authentic to the Historical Period Double proof as prescribed by the French law of 1810. Bastin Frres We present shotguns with a wide variety of features, technical characteristics, and prices from the worlds best companies, such as Chiappo, Italy; Tar Ideal Concept LTD, Israel and the leader of Chinese gun-industry - China North Industries Corp. (NORINCO). Example of inspectors mark, any letter can be used with a crown. Christophe Louis Key Findings. Belgium double barrel 16 Gauge SN 13938 preBelgium double barrel 16 Gauge SN 13938 pre 1898 fine old Belgium imported exposed hammer shotgun, Leige proofed, floral engraved receiver showing some; FINE 19C. Are also discussed the many markings found applied on the guns and their Broqua & Scholberg Bonzon & Arents & Cie Listing of small arms appearing from 1800 to 1899. Needless to say, I bought the gunand it will never be for sale as long as I am alive. To make purchases and use the full site services, register or login your account. On barrels of muzzleloading guns that has passed a re-enforced black powder proof. Markings on gun barrels and other gun components that indicate the level of pressure, calibre and standards that a weapon is fit for in service.. "Cueruy" could be the maker. The Baby Browning in . Quite old. New York: A. S. Barnes, 1961. In addition to Hi, your shotgun was made after 1924 due to the Perron-Liege proof marks. Dallas, Donald. It could be of relatively recent manufacture. % Bernimolin & Cap [Later note: Gerhard Wirnsberger has written. On barrels and actions of smoothbore guns with the gauge size. Clment-Neumann Technically the company is owned by Belgium firearms maker FN Herstal. cases. Liege, in Belgium, has always been celebrated for its weapons, and established its proof house as a municipal enterprise on May 10, 1672, when it was laid down that barrels should be marked with the stamp of the city, and unproved weapons might not be sold under pain of a fine of a gold florin and the confiscation of the unproved barrel. Jun 21, 2012. This includes many fine Browning A5 shotguns and the Superposed shotgun. Thanks for any help you can offer.Rick dwonczyk, I found one with elg with a star underneath in a circle but there was also a T with a star above it and the letter S also on the cylinder pin fire solid erase revolver with a collapsible trigger was told it was .31, Hi, Rick. Berleur Guillaume These it was my grandfathers and has been in the family for a while. We now have 1689 serial numbers!. 1840-1860. John Browning's Auto-5 set the bar for semi-automatic shotguns. (most sales were in the 1930s). Further changes were initiated, when smokeless powder necessitated more stringent conditions of proof. So the barrel strength would be just a bit less than "modern" barrels; but not the corrosion resistance of Winchester Nickel Steel or AISI 4140. production. will it take normal 12 gauge shells then? Lewis Lobdell Hepburn ran his own gunshop in Colton, a small village .Click for more info Seller: gbdeer Area Code: 315 $2,600.00 ATTRACTIVE WESLEY RICHARDS 6-GAUGE PERCUSSION SINGLE BARREL SHOTGUN GI#: 102214961 (Six volumes by alphabetical order), Belgian Liege gunmakers (A to C) - Volume 1. Collette Lopold Without a photo, I can't add anything to what you already know: it's a handgun made in Belgium. This devotion to Americana papers over the foreign status of all three gun companies: Glock. Condition Grading Definitions For Antique Firearms, This website may not ArmsCollectors.com Collectable Firearms Forums Modern, antique and collectable firearms, questions answered, gun & militaria related items. This will be an on going Their proof marks are two feathers, or curved branches, crossed with letters in the angles of the cross so formed. A complete list of suppliers of shotguns. Most shotguns have smoothbore barret to be able to use shells which are grouped by gauges (instead of rifles caliber) - they indicate the weight of the ammunition fired. interlaced, and surmounted by a crown. Serial Numbers. The date stamps is not used on all guns, otherwise that is the most accurate. Hello,I have a flintlock rifle that is stamped "spesco corporation made in Belgium" on the top of the smoothbore barrel. 1840-1860. Made in Belgium, circa 1890, cracked stock with pistrol grip, old refinish to action. Stevans): cant verify it is Maj. Doan, but on his hip is a pistol, which looks alike a 7 in. We have just started to assemble this on going source of Proof typically do not have a caliber designation; symbols and codes are used barrel began as a means to insure its safety and integrity. These might cursive as well. First Obligatory Proof Load for "Double-Barreled Breech-Loading Sporting Guns", Have a us arms Belgium, looking for info, reciever and barrel are stamped with 1563 has the circle elf star, has the Le peron, barrel ha a 33 stamp and an 18.0 stamp also has something that looks like JIT stamped any comments appreciated , trying to figure out when it was made. Mechanicsburg, PA: Stackpole Books, 2008. Some proved pieces exist, and are marked in the case of revolvers with the letters U.S., in the case of other arms with the letters V.P. Courard N. The size of this book of 232 pages In some cases this cipher is also preceded by the figures 16, and followed by a capital B., also surmounted by a crown. Any info will help. Counet-Leboulle J. Clment Charles Philibert A forum community dedicated to Shotgun owners and enthusiasts including the Remington, Beretta, and Mossberg shotguns brands. Withdraw it and lay it along the barrel, lining up the pencil mark with the muzzle. Proof Thank y'all for your help ahead of time! B. Tradename on guns made in Belgium, c.1900. Shotguns became popular after the U.S. Army used them during the First World War while close-range fighting in trenches. Closset J.M. Classic Arms Importers and manufacturers of blackpowder guns and kits, located in Palmer, Massachusetts. Get this product now as it would not last, Contract - 5.56 x 45mm 62 Gr. Under their charter the Gunmakers Company had powers to prove and mark all manner of hand guns, daggs, and pistols, and every part thereof, whether made in London or in the suburbs, or within ten miles thereof, or brought thither for sale, or imported for foreign parts. The slot for the pin had to be welded up and a firing pin installed.I dont know when pin-fire cartridges ceased being manufactured, but Id guess they were still available until the early twentieth century. Greetings Easthampton again, I have since, researched:The officers of the 105th Ohio were issued the 38-40 44. In contrast to Walther, Mauser did not start over with serial numbers at the . Can you pleasure us with a pic of the side view of the tubeset top rib extension to accept the Greener crossbolt? Behr Jean jacques Barrels are not rifled- does this mean it must be a shotgun? Colard Louis - Counet Lonard I suspect the gun is a Janssen. It is a hammer back breakaway 12 gauge side by side. So I'd guess it was made in the late 1800's. Henri Pieper (left) and Nicolas Pieper (right) Henri Pieper was born and raised in modest German home in Soest (Westphalia) Germany on Oct 30, 1840. However, there are more proof marks that I cannot find on the internet. IMPORTANT NOTE! #1 A buddy at work inherited a very nice customized Mauser from his dad. I've owned two Belgian side by sides and two Browning Superposed, so I guess I can say that I have some acquaintance withtwentieth centuryones, but unlike my posts on antique English shotguns I don't have an antique Belgian one at hand to describe. Clment Walter Quick Facts What about a lightning bolt with a star above? Cowboy & Old Western History Items 2/3/2023 Bargain Basement 2/3/2023 Check our Services. Berleur Michel